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Ulf Kleinings emails telling people to quit couchsurfing !!

This is the letter Ulf sent a lot of people with the veiled threats to leave couchsurfing .

In a recent post he writes:

I had actually even tried to “talk” to them in personal CS mails – but that went so utterly wrong that after the replies I got from them I simply knew that I could not talk to them. …That was not what I had become after the pirate’s “raid”. And since they made it clear that they intended to keep up their fights in this very group.

You decide if the content of the email was about “talking”

Any chance to stop our waltz now???



I really didn’t wanna write this mail. Because I’m almost sure that you don’t want to read this from me anyways (or at least not any more…).
But I might do you wrong on this and perhaps you’d actually like to know what my “anti-campaign” is motivated by – or where I am coming from.

So this is AN OFFER in case you’re actually interested.

If you are not – just don’t read it.
I will not go public (in the groups or elsewhere) ranting about how you not used that try of mine for a dialogue and to clear up each others positions here.

In other words: don’t feel obliged to even read any further but just completely ignore this if you’re already too pissed off by me or what I’ve posted recently – I will not use that against you in any way!

I also must warn you that it will be quite sharply accusing and even a bit angry at times.

And I realize of course that in every management and/or communication seminar in this world you’ll always be told that such a rough tone is probably not the best
way to start a dialog.

Well – then this first step will have to wait just a tiny little bit longer.

For this is not gonna be a psychologically well and cleverly phrased luring you into anything

but instead I will simply be honest and blunt about what I think about your campaign! And since a lot of that angers me personally big time – this here (logically!) has to be a bit angry at times.

So here’s what increasingly annoyed me to the point where I needed to “shoot back” – to have some kind of outlet for my own anger…

It all starts with your (alleged and/or true) motivation(s) that you name for what’s driving you…

Some of you – namely Kasper and Anu – are very honest about how personal anger and disappointments (caused by what you view as betrayals) have been one big
motivation for you:

I do honestly not simply brush this away!
To tell you the truth – I actually have much more sympathy for such motivations than for what the others allege is driving them!

And yet while I do believe you that you feel this way -that

doesn’t necessarily mean that such feelings (and thus your motivations for your campaigning) are really based on actual events but only on what YOU REMEMBER has happened. Only that doesn’t necessarily have to be the facts…

AND by that I do NOT want to say that Kasper and Anu are lying. They might just be remembering things differently than others do.

And the fact that there is more than one person remembering events in the past
exactly the same does not prove anything! It’s in fact usually the quite the opposite! Here’s what usually happens:

one person remembers an event strongly but unfortunately also (at least in parts) wrong. Another person doesn’t remember it that well any more and thus (unconsciously) just follows the first one’s memories, adopts them as his own and thus re-strengthens the
first one in his conviction that things have happened the way he says they have.

There have even been experiments about that in which 2 groups of people were to witness a certain event and then the members of group A had to testify separately what they had seen whereas the members of group B were given time to discuss what they then testified
together. And – guess what! – group B’s one common testimony is usually further away from the truth than some single testimonies from some group A members.

And the other (even more important) difference is that most of group A members (even those whose testimonies were really close to the truth) don’t say they are 100% sure they remember everything correctly – whereas almost all of group B’s member say they are!!!

And that is why I don’t even believe you when you say

you have very good reasons for your fury because Casey and the others betrayed you. I mean, for example, even Kasper once told me that Casey had perhaps never
explicitly guaranteed him that CS will go open-source -

but he says that Casey has (to Kasper’s conviction: intentionally!) let him go on believing that this would happen.

But others have told me that Kasper believed what he wanted to believe and that Casey might have been a tad too diplomatic at this point but has in fact never held out the prospect of making the CS code open-source any time soon.

Which is – of course – just one example. In essence I just mean to say that simply because some of you remember things in a way that shows them as events anyone would feel betrayed or disappointed or annoyed by this doesn’t mean that these things have actually happened this way!

The other motivation(s) anger me even more!

First of all I must admit that I don’t quite believe you (any more – see below) -
but even if I did then this wouldn’t change anything.
Or at least not for the better.

I’m talking of course about those of you who claim that your motivations have nothing to do with personal grudges or anger – let alone hatred – in any way but are purely altruistic.

For you simply want to protect other members from being exploited and sucked out or
in any other way mistreated (betrayed of their donation money or whatever) by the LT.

Your repeated tries to picture yourself as the guiding shepherds who only wanna warn all us blinded sheep about the dangers those bad wolves mean to us.

And – of course – what infuriates me so much about that attitude is (as always) this very overbearingly patronizing.

I doesn’t make a difference if members suggest more and more bans and regulations or TTT
thinks about new censorship tools – or you keep on warning us and “fighting for us” against what endangers us!

All these approaches only show how some members think that
a) the other members need that protection and
b) need it from them! If that is not atad arrogant – then what is?
I on the other hand do of course believe that we “others” are mature and smart enough to care for ourselves.

We don’t need that help – no matter how well you mean it. Actually that constant well-meaning is what sickens me most!

We don’t need to be protected from guys who offer in CS groups to serve a gang of female members for a dinner with nothing but their ties on.

Nor to be protected from being led astray by a

CS members who ask for a little amount to crash his (super equipped) place.

Nor to be protected from posters who may be a bit offensive at times – or

And likewise we can see for ourselves when “our leaders” betray us and when they waste our donated money

what consequences we have to draw from this!

We don’t need you for this and certainly not your ongoing rantings and postings- and now even stronger methods to “open our eyes”. We can care for ourselves – don’t you get this???

But as I’ve said above I even doubt that warning us is really still your main goal. From all you published lately one can’t help but conclude that you’re in fact up to ruin the LT’s reputation – no matter what the costs!

You are not protecting anyone anymore but only desperately trying to rally as many as possible against the people who you now very obviously hate so much!

And this is why the “issues fade”!

I’ve stated in the past where
I disagree with you on the actual issues (e.g. democracy) – and where
I’m on your side (e.g. censorship).
If that could make you feel better I’d have no problems repeating where I
agree with you (even publicly – even if that means that I’m then publicly criticizing the LT!!!).

But my recent posts “against you” were not only NOT really against you personally (of course!) but actually not even against your issues or concerns or points of
criticism either -

but only about your “way” of forcing them on “everybody”.

I do not doubt that you’re convinced (or should I say: still successfully fooling yourself into believing)that your causes are noble.

But how can you – after such a long time – still pretend you’re doing all this
in the name of,
let’s just say: “many” others, when you never get any support from them?
Only 90 people taking that survey!
Even if you don’t view this as 90 out of 325,000
but go with Donna and say 90 out of 1,000 -that’s still less than 1 %!!!

And how many people do post and read on OCS?

And don’t try to fool yourself or anybody else by telling that it’s just (still) too
few people who even know about that little website of yours -
you’ve banged your drums loud and long enough;-)

And if you (eventually) do accept the fact that you are apparently not speaking for the silent masses – then you simply change your chain of arguments by saying that even “only 90 members” have rights and should get some respect and (especially when at least some of them
have volunteered quite a remarkable bit of time and efforts to CS…) some appreciation, too…

But then how can you simply keep ignoring the point that I’ve constantly been trying to make: that giving to those 90 what they want (the financial reports, the answers to all your questions) takes time

which then can not be spent on whatever those other 324.910 members would perhaps prefer to get from the same people who’ll have to take the time to please you 20 or 90 members?

What makes you think that your wishes are more important or of higher value or for what reason ever to be prioritized.

Who is to decide that anyways?
I don’t know what the LT or tech team or other current powers base their decisions on -

but one thing seems very clear to me:

I’d personally rather spend my time on volunteering for something which (I’d believe) as
many surfers as possible will benefit from than on something that (I’d believe) only 90 people are really interested in.

And would even consider that a wise and selfless decision.

Actually what I myself would probably do is spending my volunteering time on what

I’d like to do best – and that would certainly not be to give in to any claims made by the same 20 (or 90 or whatever) people who’s thrown so much mud at me.

Which gets me to the next point – the one that infuriates me most:

your constant and most of the time very unfounded and simply false presumptions,
insinuations and accusations.

And how you use any cheap rhetoric trick to turn whatever you can find into something that’s allegedly supporting your points
- when of course a closer look almost always reveals that it is in fact not!

This email as well as all my recent counter-posts were and are – as I said above -
motivated mainly by my anger about this.

What an irony- you do your thing out of anger about the LT and
I do mine out of anger about you guys! (And you can’t really complain about this when you claim that same right for you!!!)

But reading some of the most recent posts (especially in Anu’s goodbye thread) it looks like you now won’t stop at nothing anymore.

You declare everyone who’s not with you (i.e. basically everybody…) silent
accomplice of a criminal band who uses “your money” to commit crimes!!!

You try set the Thai authorities at us/them/the CSC.

Legal actions against CS are taken in New Hampshire!

And please – spare me the bullshit (and save some dignity for yourself) by not even trying to claim that this is not against CS but only against CS’s LT and
thus even for the benefit of CS for it’s the LT who means the real thread for CS.

You know as well as I do that if taking them down will eventually mean taking CS down.

At least for the time being…
Sure, that would prove your points – for in a democratic and transparent community the downfall of the leaders does not mean the community’s downfall,

But to provoke CS’s end only to prove that you were right – how incredibly sick is that?
And how could you then still pretend that you only wanted to help CS as a community???

This is as retarded as – let’s say – shooting soldiers before they go to Iraq to prevent them from being shot there!

And if it wasn’t you who sent the formal query to the Royal Thai Government and who placed the thoroughly documented formal query about possible Unlawful Charitable Solicitations before the Attorney General of New Hampshire – then why does it sound like you’re all too eager to see what this will lead to?

Ok. That’s why I’m so furious about your campaign and so angrily trying to oppose you!
But now I’d like to take a look on how you think this will go on.

Here’s your current situation as I see it:
You can’t get what you want from the LT
since you cannot force them to give in to you.

You could keep on trying to irritate them so long and so much until they eventually decide to give in to you to stop all that fuss you’re making.

But so far that hasn’t been successful at all – at the contrary:

you claim more communication from the LT – but your constant ranting and mudslinging has only stopped them from even reading the posts in certain groups any more.

That might not be professional but it’s surely very understandable to me!

I think I would do likewise!!

And so instead of getting the LT to respond to any of your matters (how could they if they don’t even read it anymore!!!) -

you’ve actually set more and more”regular” members against you, who were often
initially even with you on some issues (and would still – apart from all the fights over policies and
politics -

like to get to know you in person to have a beer or two or just a good time in any other way…).

So now you have the LT against you (even on very personal levels),

hardly anyone any more behind you and all this in a online community who’s future, as
you are so sure, is so heavily threatened and where donated money is wasted on crap and the security of the members’ data so endangered…

I know, I know… If your standard reply to that is still (after all I’ve written up to hear) that awkward questions and criticism must not be so easily be to be silenced – then there’s obviously nothing to stop your incredibly unrealistic vanity!

I mean:
Why do you guys think it’s up to you to change CS? Seriously:
Why do you even care at all whether CS is a community where such things are suppressed? Where there is now transparency, no democracy and no criticism tolerated,
… Why does all that concern you?
You can’t stop that – and that’s mainly because practically nobody agrees with you on hardly any of those accusations and concerns and views (any more) -
and thus nobody supports you in this but is only increasingly annoyed by your furious rantings.
And if that all is the case (and how can you still disagree that it is?!?) -

then why don’t you leave that doomed community with it’s rotten leadership and
it’s blindly following members behind? If it’s (in your opinion) that bad – why not spending your expertise and precious time and all for a hospitality exchange network which (in your opinion) is worth it?
Do you really feel all your efforts and motives are appreciated here?

Certainly not by the “powers” but obviously neither by the members – except for the same very, very few people again and again!
Is it perhaps just the money you donated?
I’m sure we could give you that money back!
If it’s the time you spent at the CSC’s -
we could figure out how much you got for that in return (accommodation, food, …) and
then -
should we agree that your work was more worth than that -
could perhaps even pay you some money for your work there…

And then you can go somewhere else and make all the things you’ve learned here (in such a hard way!)count.
By that I mean: make sure that none of those many, many mistakes that (in your opinion) have happened and are still happening on CS will be repeated there.

Think of all the advantages you’d have!

You can plan for a community of several hundreds of thousands of members right from the start.
You can think about all the features and ways of communications and extras and
security issues and possible if not probable future server problems and ways to generate funds

but also at the same time financial reports regularly and how to install some kind of democracy and transparency ALL FROM THE START – before even the 1st member will have joined!

You’ve been part of so many things on CS and (as you’ve posted more than enough) have witnessed so many things that went wrong (in your opinion) -

so you can avoid them on your hospitality network right from the start.

And you’ve met each other!

Technical gurus, law experts, visionary minds, devoted day-by-day
workers! All in that little group of 20 (or 90 or so)!!!

And then -
when you’ve finished all the programming in a few months then you’ll post heavily about that on CS. And -
NO! – they won’t stop you from this!!!
And then if your own network turns out to be really so much better -

since it’s without any of what you’ve criticized about CS – then surely all the CS members
will change over to your network in no time! Granted -by that time that will be a few hundreds of thousands profiles who’d have to be transferred then, with a few hundreds of thousands of friend links and all.
But behind that are a few hundreds of thousands people who can do the job – one profile per person.

And those people then will not even have to be convinced of the general idea of hospitality exchange networks anymore!

And there you’d have achieved your goal! Free all those poor CS’ers from their mean leaders – not by getting rid of the leaders or by changing their old community

but by giving them a new one where everything will be so much better.

Mainly because it’ll be without them dreadful leaders!

Why do you still invest time in posting in the CS groups or your OCS site -

instead of putting all your time and efforts in coding that Casey free vision???

Btw: Should you ever come to Cologne then the first beers are on me;-)
(Only wanna make sure that I’m good friends with the leaders of that new community, too, right from the start;-D)

Maat et jot! / Take care!


84 Responses to “Ulf Kleinings emails telling people to quit couchsurfing !!”

  • a nice big fight showing pictures of you and accusing you of things as soon as you did. i am shocked and appalled that could happen, i mean hasnt that place changed?

    What are you shocked about?Ulf pressing someones(tina/his guest?) tits? Pressing someone ticks and captioning it as Molesting tina! that too on a site which says Couchsurfing is NOT a dating site.What do you no get?
    Do you think it is acceptable? Can anyone else also molest tina now that ulf has molested her?Can everyone now post molesting pics not that ambassador Ulf Kleinings from Cologne had done it.

    Also ULF have no point to help any discussion notice how he refers to his opponents genitals and sexuality in the BSR to AVOID facing the point. And this on a thread whose subject is “I think we’ve had two playgrounds long enough”.
    Thirty – Eight Ways to Win an Argument
    from Schopenhauer’s “The Art of Controversy”

    3 Ignore your opponent’s proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.Rather, understand it in some quite different sense, and then refute it.
    Attack something different than what was asserted.

    OR “penis envy” or “small penis syndrome” (This show how a moderator who has to keep a topic on track ,deliberately?(or maybe he is not so intelligent to know what he is doing) does this to the thread.

    “pathological liar”: Of course I apologize! For it was not quite correct. Or maybe it was – but then I didn’t KNOW, so I failed my own standards (hey – I could run for NY governor now!!!). Fact is that most of what you post is wrong. It’s simply untrue – and yet you keep trying to sell it as the truth to everyone. But that doesn’t necessarily make you a liar – for a liar knows what he’s doing…

    This shows how an immature poster tries to weasel himself out of a situation where his bluff is called. Also notice how many unnecessary lines where wasted.And this guy is a moderator funny!!

  • “Thirty – Eight Ways to Win an Argument”

    My favourite one is this: I take offence to being called “a pathological liar”, and Ulf says he doesn’t believe I’m really offended; I’m just pretending so that I can attack him. :-}

  • I’ll answer your second post first Daz, as it involves less scrolling to see what I am answering to. OK firstly

    “What are you shocked about?”

    As I said I was being sarcastic. I was saying I am shocked that Ulf could go back into Brainstorm and a fight could start instantly. That’s all. I was being sarcastic about the fact people said we could go back to bs and be productive again yet as soon as Ulf went back in a flame war started.

    Don’t read too much into it. Seriously, if you are asking me questions, why are you writing answers for me first. Don’t assume you know the answers before they are given. That was one of the things I learned when I started as a teacher. Many students may ask the same questions and you may think you know what they are going to ask, as 20 other people have asked the same thing, but listen because your canned answer may not be right and when you give it, you look foolish. So next time, don’t assume the answers, wait for them.

    About the penis envy and the rest of that, I didn’t pay attention because they are not brainstorming they are flaming. Plain and simple. Ulf says I am in an argument, if you are not interested in the Ulf Pickwick show don’t read on. It really doesn’T interest me beyond that.

    Although I give credence to one thing. Pickwick always asks questions and gets pissed when nobody answers them, ie, Jim, Casey, Rach etc. but as Ulf pointed out, when you (since you are reading this) are asked straight out to name your sources for your proof behind the questions or answers you give, or statements you make, you refuse to give them. You do the same as Daz did here, you ask a question, making it seem as if you are enquiring, but then give an answer making it sound like fact, although it’s in a questioning tone. What you posted about Rach leaving the BS group for instance. She didn’t leave because of that, I remember talking to her about it once and she was saying how glad she was to finally leave that group and come to BSR and maybe get things productive again.

    So Pickwick,, like the advice I tried to give to Daz, when you ask a question, please wait for an answer please. If you feel it is rhetorical, let it be so, don’t accuse people of things acting as if you know all the facts and then refusing to name your sources. I’ll go on to Daz’s first post now.

  • Well Rach asked me to find all the old threads about this one issue. Therefore by doing that she was receiving help from everyone who ever posted on that matter that I could find threads about. She just didn’t have time to look through the archives, and I just went through my gmail records.
    You claim that a lot of the ambassadors didn’t want to change it from extremely, but you will see that from the beginning the discussions about changing the system back to how it was before, or at least without extremely were most popular. Whether in the BS group, or the QvQ, or elsewhere. Now that it has been mentioned in the Amb group a few people are opposed to it. These are the new members, who never knew the system beforehand. Also the extremely are out of hand anyway. I mean I have over 200 refs, and most of them are extremely, too many of them are from people who spoke to me for 5 minutes. That is awful, how can everyone say I am extremely positive. I’m not always so. I was not using the system properly myself, giving extremely to almost everyone. I don’t believe that many people can be considered extremely positive by so many people. It says extremely, the edge of the edge. That means above and beyond. How could you possibly have that much positive energy from someone from one meeting. You can, but rarely. If it said very positive fine, but extremely. The Extremists are people to fear in government and terrorism usually. Anyway this doesn’t continue this discussion so I will stop.
    You say BS is where things are supposed to be discussed yet most ambs are not in there, because all the talk in there before about refs, they were not aware of, so this numbers game of BS doesn’t work. It may be the 1% who give their opinion, but the other %’s don’t seek out ways to discuss this.
    You can read it however you like. Maybe I outlined my words improperly, I do that often, I read my emails again and see how things I said can be misinterpreted. In this case you did so. I was not saying they were only changed because of that as I mentioned before, so I will not repeat that.
    Hoe do you know Donna got all her “tech Buddies” to join BSR to give it more voice? Did you ask her? Have you seen posts from her on this, or are you assuming? As said in Under Seige 2 “Assumption is the mother of all Fuck-ups.” Or the other old saying, when you assume you make and ASS out of U and ME. And yes BSR is listened too, maybe not as much as you like, but it is read, as might BS, but in the BS group it says, the tech team nor the LT is reading it. It is listened to, not necessarily heard.
    How many people have been discontented by her tactics? I would like names? Figures, because you say all over as if you are aware of a lot of people having problems with this and not just you and Pickwick. Once again, If you were attacked for everything you said (not me, the LT) whether it were good or bad, would you continue to come into a group and talk to people? I wouldn’t, maybe you are made of different mettle than me. She is not ignoring people’s posts, once again, she asked me for all the data on people who had given their opinions, that’s a lot of opinions over time. They do have a lot to contribute which is why I found it for her to use the stuff they contributed with.
    I do give my frank opinions as do most other. I said in one thread here that I think Collectives are a waste of time. I have always said in the BS group that I don’t like the lack of communication anymore than anyone else. It doesn’t matter to me who I am friends with, I will give my opinion as it is. Have you proof donna played games, once again. If so, show it to us. I would like more communication as much as anyone else, so don’t say I don’t. I have not liked the collectives for a long time and the communication is crap.
    Also what makes you say they are miscommunicating? They are not, it is simply no communication. You can’t miscommunicate something when nothing is being said.
    Once again on your green horn paragraph, we have clarified it. I post as I see fit, you need emotion sometimes. Maybe you don’t like my emotion but doesn’t mean I’m going to change my posting style. I will post as I see fit, when I see fit.
    OK firstly, I did write longer posts, just as long as the ones in here. In both BS and BSR, once again, I would like to know who you are in CS as I would like to know who I am talking to. Be nice to put a face to the name. I do remember being attacked I just don’t want to bother going through my old gmail posts. I felt like I didn’t get enough posts for rach, as I was deleting a lot of mails for a while, and I’m not sure I will find everything I want now. If you don’t believe me that is your prerogative, and if you want them, I will dredge through my archives at some stage and look for them. Just not now. If you say I only posted a few lines, why did you label the closure or destruction of BS or how you put it as being down to me donne and ulf.
    Well, does Marcus often post in the BS group? No he doesn’t, he only did when he made himself sole moderator after the name change debacle. Why do you believe people are in these groups to give it credibility, do you have proof of this or just want to say it. Are you saying the 700 members or so of BS who don’t post are there to give it credibility? How many times were people asked to leave brainstorm. The posts written said listen, if you hate the bickering in BS well we have an alternative. A lot of people didn’t move over, but you may have noticed, of the amount who did, that is about the equivalent of how many post in BS. You may have more posters, but you have a hell of a lot more who don’t.
    I don’t believe you would bury the facts by not being blunt, I think I am being pretty straight forward and looking for facts that you claim to have but don’t back up with proof. How can you bury facts, when you don’t actually back them up. They don’t actually exist.

  • Don’t assume you know the answers before they are given. That was one of the things I learned when I started as a teacher. Many students may ask the same questions and you may think you know what they are going to ask, as 20 other people have asked the same thing, but listen because your canned answer may not be right and when you give it, you look foolish. So next time, don’t assume the answers, wait for them.

    What are you talking about ?What answers? Please quote the lines when you make an allegation.

    The Extremists are people to fear in government and terrorism usually.

    nuf said

    How many people have been discontented by her tactics? I would like names? Figures
    Have you proof donna played games, once again.
    Why do you believe people are in these groups to give it credibility, do you have proof of this or just want to say it.

    Do you follow the groups ?Did you ? Do scan all of donnas posts from the BS and BSr and then we can post quotes.

    She just didn’t have time to look through the archives,
    She is not ignoring people’s posts

    Well, does Marcus often post in the BS group?

    Is this related to my previous statement,”if” it is the it has been twisted out of context. OR is this a question out of the blue with no connection to the flow of posts here?

    Also what makes you say they are miscommunicating? They are not, it is simply no communication. You can’t miscommunicate something when nothing is being said.

    So is this the present tactic of the LT?
    My post refers to donna not anyone else ,to whome does “they” refer ?

  • Isn’t it nice to be confused? I was writing all this out in replies to you post in a word document but then continued to delete all the stuff from your post when I had finished answering it. Ok I will do so now.

    Also sorry about the paragraphs, I thought there were spaces in between. How do I edit that?

    Ok can someone tell me how to edit my previous post to make it more helpful before I answer this post. I have to go out now and will answer later on tonight or tomorrow.

  • Click on the register link on the top and the when you login you can edit your post? Is that right callum/thomas?

  • I’m already registered though. But I don’t see a login button so I assume I am still logged in from last night and I can’t find an edit post button.

  • Maybe you don’t like my emotion but doesn’t mean I’m going to change my posting style. I will post as I see fit, when I see fit.

    Look who is assuming. That is why it better not to lecture someone on stuff you cannot follow yourself. There is no maybe. i just pointed out when you post with anger your posts go offtopic and haywire (does not always but it does most time for more people.PS your=not directing the statement towards you)

    About the penis envy and the rest of that, I didn’t pay attention because they are not brainstorming they are flaming. Plain and simple. Ulf says I am in an argument, if you are not interested in the Ulf Pickwick show don’t read on. It really doesn’T interest me beyond that.

    I think you missed the whole point. And it is immaterial if you care or dont care about the flame war.
    Let me requote

    OR “penis envy” or “small penis syndrome” (This show how a moderator who has to keep a topic on track ,deliberately?(or maybe he is not so intelligent to know what he is doing) does this to the thread.
    This shows how an immature poster tries to weasel himself out of a situation where his bluff is called. Also notice how many unnecessary lines where wasted.And this guy is a moderator funny!!

    The main issue is a good moderator DOES not start a flame war, does not use 38 Ways To Win An Argument.A good moderator is an individual who diffuses flame wars

    What are the ideal traits in a moderator? (sitepoint – Super Moderator Guide)
    One thing you can do to identify a mature member is to closely evaluate how they react when faced with different forum situations. Do they get angry easily? Are their answers usually unbiased? Are they considerate of others’ ideas and opinions? If you answered yes to those questions, then you might have found a mature member who’d make a good moderator.

  • Spyro says they worked on the references with rachel .And ESP is NOT good.BUT looks like the FOUNDERS still use it .

    From Sebastien Le Tuan
    San Jose, United States
    Mar 12 Met in person
    Extremely Positive

    Deena is sweet, charming, and packs a big, insatiable appetite for Life and exploring the world. I really enjoyed spending those few days with her in Pai, talking about why we’re traveling in the first place, watching the starry sky during a power outage, and dancing with locals at the Pai Reggae Fest. I love her outlook on Life and I hope to join her someday on more unforgettable adventures.

    For Sebastien Le Tuan
    San Jose, United States
    Mar 1 Met in person
    Extremely Positive

    All smiles and way too much fun = Seb. I had an absolute blast dancing all night at the Reggae Festival in Pai- trading hats and bonding with the locals. :) And when you’re not dancing and laughing with Seb, then you’re having interesting, intelligent conversations… he reminds me so much of my close friends from back home. I was so sad to leave Pai so soon, for it would have been nice to have more time to get to know you better…… but we have a world of time for dancing. Hope to see you, again, and thanks for all of your hard work at the Collective! You’re the best!

  • Extremely positive for speaking on the phone ?

    From MANDIE M
    Pai, Thailand
    Mar 3 Met in person
    Extremely Positive

    Deena is super fabulously nice! From the moment we spoke on the phone her general cheerfulness shone through…very easy going, positive outlook on life and a smile that could light up any room! Thank you so much for coming and brightening up the Collective :-)

  • What is Pai Reggae Fest ?

    Combat Global Warming Reggae Festival in Pai, Thailand with Palmy and all the popular Thai bands

    pai, thailand, global, warming, raggae, festival, band, bands, palmy, music, entertainment, event

  • Seeker,

    I believe in Mandie’s comment it is stated “from the moment we spoke on the phone…….for coming … to the collective” … It appears since Mandie is at the collective, and Deena also showed up, they did actually meet.

  • Seeker,

    I think I am missing the point as to why Seb using an ESP (I assume you mean Extremely Positive) which is still a menu choice available to everyone when leaving a reference. When it is not available, I am assuming Seb will adapt and not use it. Of course, if you are talking about ESP – ExtraSensory Perception, I think Spyro has it, Rachel might, and Seb from I hear might as well.

    I am not picking on you, but I did stumble across your posts this evening and many of them left me confused. I am just not sure what your point is in many of them. As for Spyro and Rachel discussing the Ref system, that may or may not be true. And from what I have read on the CS site a new version of it IS coming soon. But what does that have to do with a “founder” and a reference he left?

  • okijibawa it is all about the random use of the Extremely positive reference for people who were passing through. Also the reference system was worked at the csct but the founders at the csct are still using the ESP (Extremely Positive) reference who anyone and everyone .

  • The post was also to show the hard work they were putting in at the collective.

  • Seeker, they did (are) working on changes to the Ref system. Why do you care if a founder is still using the current system until the new system is released? It looks like Seb and this person really hit it off and had a great time. Why can’t he use and Extremely Positive?

    Nevermind, please don’t answer. You are not making sense. This is starting to sound like I am having a conversation with Dr Harpal Sing.

  • Why do you care if Seb has been mentioned?

    Never mind . I see the pattern.

  • # 44 Foul Ways to Win an Argument (which include the following):

    * Appeal to Authority
    * Appeal to Experience
    * Appeal to Fear
    * Appeal to Popular Passions
    * Appeal to Tradition or Faith (“the tried & true”)
    * Assume a Posture of Righteousness
    * Attack the person (and not the argument)
    * Beg the Question
    * Call For Perfection (demand impossible conditions)
    * Create a False Dilemma (the great either/or)
    * Question Your Opponent’s Conclusions
    * Create Misgivings: Where There’s Smoke, There’s Fire
    * Create A Straw Man
    * Deny or Defend Your Inconsistencies
    * Demonize His Side Sanitize Yours
    * Evade Questions, Gracefully
    * Flatter Your Audience
    * Hedge What You Say
    * Ignore the Evidence
    * Ignore the Main Point
    * Attack Evidence (that undermines your case)
    * Insist Loudly on a Minor Point
    * Make Much of Any Inconsistencies in Your Opponent’s Position
    * Make Your Opponent Look Ridiculous
    * Oversimplify the Issue

  • okijibawa This is starting to sound like I am having a conversation with Dr Harpal Sing.

    Ah so the tactic is do not ask for a clarification
    * Make Your Opponent Look Ridiculous

  • I consider ULF to be a fundamentalist boor
    However, this blog quarrels openly with those who, having examined nothing but their own righteously insecure biases, seek to claim the moral and intellectual high ground. No amount of reason sways them, no amount of light reaches them. These people are the boors among us, and I have little remaining patience for them.

    That said, the dominant boor species today is the fundamentalist boor, and they are easy to distinguish from their fellow congregants (be clear on the point: not all fundamentalists or evangelicals are boors). They demand that all their points be considered with delicate precision, yet they make not even a meaningful pretense of honestly considering anyone else’s arguments. Each boor is convinced that the other side in any debate is somehow an agent of evil or, at best, a subhuman dupe.

    They believe their opponents to be dishonest and consequently feel no moral imperitive to honesty themselves. They misrepresent facts, slander their opponents and act as if they feel not the slightest twinge of conscience.

    Somewhere in the tortured psyche of the boor lies a sense of profound insecurity, which to me suggests something of their affinity for fundamentalism. Fundamentalism says that knowledge and achievement are nothing next to faithfulness and orthodoxy.

    Either we exclude all dissenting voices (which only gives boors more legitimacy) or we allow boors to dominate discussions.

    we must figure out who is a legitimate participant and who is a boor — or, as they’re known online, a troll. They will claim a seat at the head of the table, but they haven’t earned entrance to the room.

    Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but not to their own facts. And that’s where I want to start drawing lines.

  • In short: I don’t believe in democracy – at least not here on CS!

    In short he believes in imperialism or marxism ?

    The consuls(Casey) serve as “kings;” the senate(LT/Admins/Ambassadors) as an aristocracy managing the state, the people in the assembly as the source of strength.

    First of all because it’s simply not wanted by the overwhelming majority of all CS members! And it seems absolutely illogical to me to start democracy with ignoring the wishes of that huge majority…

    I love the way ULF talked for everyone on couchsurfing.
    majority rules with minority rights.
    FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative (and vague) information

    His ‘errors’ tend to be of selective omission and appear to be consistently crafted to support his arguments.
    this tactic is more common in the field of law in which the objective is to win the argument rather than to find the truth.

    And I for once am very much against giving democratic power to most of those very, very few ones that actually want democracy on CS!
    Just thinking about all the safety issues and how CS would probably turn into a Falcons’ and Fundamentalists’ BigBrotherWonderland if we’d actually let those decide things here who are most eagerly demanding democratic powers (instead of leaving this to the – so far… – rather laissez-faire LT) gives me the creep!

    If an article or press release uses some of the methods
    above, attribute it one point per method. In the end, you can
    say that a given article has a “FUD Factor of 4″ or rated
    “7 on the FUD scale”.

    The first thing is recognizing FUD in all its forms. Awareness for
    the average person is the tricky part. Consider the average person
    that has an interest in the ever changing world of technology and
    networking. They go day to day without the benefit of forums that
    readily challenge these huge companies oozing FUD at every crevice.

  • Just a quick humorous note…. SPyro said:

    >>As I said I was being sarcastic. I was saying I am shocked that Ulf could go back into Brainstorm and a fight could start instantly.

    shocked.. that ULF could start a fight instantly?? Could entangle and derail threads? Could get people to quit reading or adding useful input by spamming people with multi-page posts?? Cmon, this was easily predictable!!

  • Crap, I’m behind on answering daz’s questions. I will get to them soon. Sorry preparing for going to india which now may not happen 5 days before i am supposed to go and my parents are coming this weekend, so crap to that too.

    Anyway Valeri, my sarcasm was, wow how could anyone imagine a fight would start when ulf came back. Not that I was shocked that it happened, that was my sarcasm. I was not shocked at all. not because I thought Ulf would start something but because both sides are good at annoying each other, so neither party are innocent. So no I was not shocked which is one of the reasons I choose not to be in BS.

  • I love to read the ULF’s trip . He just mixes up everything !!

    I guess both sides have learned from all that went wrong in Montreal and in NZ.

    What went wrong? Does ULf even know ? Ulf has never helped except at getting drunk and going for pajama parties.He uses couchsurfing!! like he used that girls pic on his profile.

    It’s just that the problem for the one side is that they have no power within CS and can’t do anything to change things the way they’d like them to be – except for trying to do so with campaigns or sites like OCS.

    What he tried to do here is make it look like the volunteers wanted power!! This is so naive.Either he does not know the issue or is using this tripe to confuse the issues. It was NEVER about power. Heather and dani had said this would not be about one man after the crash. Does Ulf remember that in his drunk head(I love the video where he was so drunk he forget the station where he needed to get down. . Casey was the guy at both collectives . He quite in MTL after he deleted the database.Heather made up for caseys void by sending out a goodbye letter and signed it on behalf of casey.At NZ kasper created the wiki with caseys permission everything was done with caseys permission . So this power trick wont work ULF.

    It’s quite understandable that this feeling of powerlessness makes them rather angry – especially when at the same time the LT actually can impose on all of us their ideas which are the result of having drawn their own lessons from what went wrong.

    What ULf tries to do here is make it look like people were angry due to some kind of power struggle. The only struggle was the orgy stuggle .Casey ruled taking the couchsurfing credit card for a trance party leaving everyone without food. You were not there ULF you were probably drunk on some street.

    ULf is a lost cause all his treads are NON factual tripe :) . I love ULF :)

  • @Serena:

    I know it’s hard to read Ulf’s posts because of length, weird examples and polemic ranting. And maybe he gets drunk more than he should from time to time. BUT: if you’d try to read the linked post, you’ll find a possible explaination why the LT is using it’s actual volunteer policy. And in my opinion a more probable explaination than some conspiracy stuff (here).

    Simplified Ulf seems to be OK with a (voluntary paid) CS-webservice, that opens all kind of oppertunities as host, guest or meeting attendee. He doesn’t seem to care how it works as long as it works (well for him). Take it or leave it as a user and/or volunteer.

    You don’t agree with this kind of concept? I do neither, but still it’s a somehow working concept for Ulf and CS corp. Even if _I_ don’t think it’s the right policy (and also don’t agree with Ulf’s opinion on other things), I’d appreciate to calm down, do a better job on analysing, rating & commenting and try to learn from it. If we can’t change CS, we may do something else. Something better or more suitable for ourselves (not necessarily for Ulf). I’m not the only one here who lost hope for CS, but some good ideas for the future of this site and why it’s still useful to stay tuned:

    PS: Sorry, for picking this comment in special, it’s true for more stuff here (and I don’t think about the trolls). Somehow the personal bitching is becoming too much for me right now, especially when there is nothing to get out of it. Maybe I’m too sensitive, but that’s they way it is.

  • ALSO from what I’ve been told (I never verified that information nor could I do that as I don’t know shit about coding…)

    And then (and here I go out on a limb even more than above – as I don’t really know 100% what I’m talking about…)

    When people try to mis represent the facts or try to change history they will be called out.

  • Because of all of that I’ve been claiming for years now that our coders should NOT be voluntary workers but paid ones! Who sign this darn NDA (or whatever it’s called) and do for CS what they are told.

    Do what you are TOLD. That is not longer volunteerism or a paid employee but more like slavery!! Also has ULf even read the NDA?Does he know from where it was copied?Does he care about what is in the NDA more than bier ?

  • Don’t expect me to analyse Ulf’s postings for you. He hisself knows perfectly well that his posts are mostly not really read by others. So it’s his decision to keep on in his style. Butf you want me to read your comments, at least try to be correct or provide somehow useful informations.

    When people try to mis represent the facts or try to change history they will be called out.

    Serena, I can’t see where this is true in the linked post, especially not in your quotes. Both are a lengthy and stupid introduction into a single paragraph with a simple thesis in each. And while the first is true (it takes some time to get into the code, so shorttime involvement could be hard to realize), the second is at least one explaination why CS stays closed source. This may be wrong, but nevertheless it’s from a special point of view a valide strategy.* In conclusion paying coders and exclude them from politics/non-tech decisions is also a strategy to avoid mixing technic and content (and yes, Uffie: capitalism is slavery).

    Of course: My idea of my favourite network is different from Ulf’s (and CS). All this corporate strategy stuff sound really weird to me when I think about a _social_ network based on hospitality exchange. But my idea of discussion is also trying to listen/read and understand my opponents. Hopefully I learn from it. This also helps to make my diffent point of view better founded.

    Just pointing fingers and context- & contentless quotes doesn’t help.

    *Disclaimer: Before my resign from volunteering I talked to Ulf about open/closed source once and especially why security issues could stop opening the code immediately. So I may be the quoted “OCS’er”. But noone was asking for opening the code to public without checking security and I told him so as well.

  • Just l want to know if Ulf is gay or not?
    Please if someone has the answer let me know

  • Ulf is in fact ghey. As “gay” is now a political term we will leave it at that and not take it further…call a spade a spade if you will.

  • I know him well enough to judge this, I think. And as he is deliberately talking about that kind of things … and he cannot invent all those details … I am 100% sure: Ulf is definitely NOT GAY! Meet him and ask him …

  • l’m prety sure that if he is gay he never will admit here.

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