First off: Don’t panic! What I’m trying to investigate is the collective, not the website or the entire CS community. I will try to look at various aspects of the collective in relation to typical cult characteristics, but I will also try and suggest an “antidote”, a way in which certain tendencies could be reverted. Note that I only approach this from a psychological point of view, religion has little to do here (for now). For all you conspiracy nuts out there: I do not believe cults are formed with the intent of forming a cult. I believe they are usually a result of well intentioned, but badly executed social experiments. Lastly, you might not agree that some of the characteristics are bad, which is fine as well of course.
Let us look at the key steps for coercive persuasion typically found in cults.
- People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations.
As a former participant, I can testify that taking part in a collective is both physically and emotionally draining. Simply put, there are too many people in too little room. Sleeping in the living room, getting too little sleep regularly because of the continuous activity, general lack of truly private moments. Many people in the NZ collective needed a “break” (temporarily move out) because of how stressful is was at times.
Possible solutions
Separate the working environment from the living environment. Encourage realistic working hours instead of letting people work into the night. Lower the number of participants to suit the venue. - Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized.
The simple explanation given in this case is “We’re all together in this monumental task”. CS as an abstract idea is seen as a supremely important goal and anything that stands in its way (criticism, the law, etc) needs to be pushed aside. “Nonviolent communication” (see previous post) is seen as the only reasonable communication style.
Possible solutions
Place CS within the larger context of hospitality networks, cooperate with other organizations on a structural level (seminars, shared initiatives, etc). Get outside experts and expertise that does more than promote the party line. Challenge entrenched viewpoints regularly, create a culture of continuous evaluation. Stop using NVC. - They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from the leader.
I’ll translate a part of a collective participants’ blog (“Doogie”) which I think speaks for itself:
“The atmosphere is anything but serious or professional. Everyone is more than friendly with each other. At unguarded moment, when you least expect it, you’ll get a heartwarming energy hug or a ‘good work’ pat on the shoulder. It is impossible to be depressed here, because every little dip is countered with the best medicine: a good portion of well meant affection.”
Possible solutions
Make rewards realistic and conditional. In essence, compliment someone on a specific job done well, instead of broad emotional rewards. Be a bit more professional, perhaps the constant hugging is not such a good thing? - They get a new identity based on the group.
The “ideal image” is the Burning Man persona: Carefree, the eternal traveler, unbound by relationships, jobs or anything similar, experimental and spiritual. During my time at the NZ collective I saw more than one “spontaneous dress up party”, where suddenly half of your colleagues are dressed in fur coats, bunny ears, half undressed and in various levels of intoxication.
Possible solutions
Keep the party out of the collective. Moderate the dressing up and make sure you have a better age/background mix in your volunteers. How many carefree 30 year old North Americans do you really need? Give some room for the “boring” people. (Note that I don’t really care about what one does in their spare time, but if a group is socially pressured into the same behavior I do object.) - They are subject to entrapment and their access to information is severely controlled.
As a volunteer, a collective is financially draining (most participants are relatively poor to begin with), which quickly limits your options to staying at the collective constantly (24/7) or quitting altogether. You are bound by a very restrictive NDA, limiting your career possibilities and ability to communicate with the outside world. Criticism is kept off the CS website through social pressure (hence the existence of this website) and criticism is put on par with “hating” (which is pure indoctrination). Again, a lack of real outside expertise (social academics and more experienced people are actively being held outside of the collective). The collective is organized in a very remote location (New Zealand, Thailand), isolating people from their regular social network.
Possible solutions
Pay all of the participants or severely limit the duration. Organize it in a much more accessible location (Europe or North America). Kill the NDA. Make critical evaluation a highly accepted and rewarding activity on CS on all levels (instead of repressing it in the “brainstorm” group).
Any other ideas?
My favorite one is where you offer “possible solutions” to this “problem”:
“At unguarded moment, when you least expect it, you’ll get a heartwarming energy hug or a ‘good work’ pat on the shoulder. It is impossible to be depressed here, because every little dip is countered with the best medicine: a good portion of well meant affection.”
What a horrible place those Collectives must be! Too bad they got rid of you guys before you were able to properly show everyone how to be cold and conditional with your love, acceptance and attention. Damn CouchSurfing and their horrible management style!
“possible solutions” bunch of hippies .
Study caseys family history. and shut the hell up . We know all about the orgies and twosomes which were part of the cultural exchange.
@anonymous
If it’s unconditional, this culture of appreciation can be a dangerous coercive technique. It lowers your mental guard and is simply not genuine. I understand the appeal of it (you’re obviously a fan), but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. It is a gateway to uncritical thinking.
@Daz
Do you mean “threesome” instead of “twosome”? Your post confuses me on many levels.
I’m at a loss how this thread could possibly be considered constructive. While I fully understand where you’re coming from with this, Thomas, and even though I tend to agree with your analysis, this is perfect ammo for those wanting to ridicule and/or marginalise the criticism uttered by those posting at OCS.
Better wait and see what the collective will bring in the end, and whether it can withstand a cost-benefit analysis. My guess is that it cannot, but we’ll never be able to arrive at that conclusion since no real progress reports are being published anywhere.
“… whether it can withstand a cost-benefit analysis.”
I forgot to add; if it can (but no worries, it won’t), the ‘leadership’ and their groupies can play cult as much as they want to as far as I’m concerned. I don’t mind under what esoteric circumstances my donation money is spent, as long as it is spent well and rationally.
@Niels Smit since no real progress reports are being published anywhere.
DO you know why they are not published ?
It is part of NVC . Do not post anything so there is no finger pointing.
Do not communicate at all so there is no way of being misquoted. (sources? )
Also when no one can track where the collective is or what they are doing (for eg bottles of champagne at montreal) there is not way you can question their spending. Heather used the new zealand collective resources for her own private trip to new zealand (never did contribute anything).But no one could question her because (1) she was caseys ex/girl friend) (2)Because no one will ever question casey.Heys a demi god.
I think it is WAY too easy to blame NVC, no matter how idiotic, for all the short-comings of the collective.
The bottom line in my view is extremely simple. Casey and pals are spending donation money at the collective. Notwithstanding the legal structure of CouchSurfing International inc., one could convincingly argue that it is ‘our’ money, and that Casey and pals have an obligation, if not legally then at least morally, to account for their expenditures.
If they can convince CS users that donation money is spent well, and is spent more efficiently than would have been the case without a Thai collective, they have my blessing. They can run around naked invoking Lucifer himself for all I care, as long as they deliver, and as long as their output is in accordance with the amount of money used to generate it.
Of course, we can all predict that this will not be the case. But I am not inclined to let them get away with answering far-fetched accusations regarding cult-hood, while the actual, rational matters underlying it remain unaddressed.
Again back to your previous quote Niels Smit ” since no real progress reports are being published anywhere.”
With the limited news letters and north korea style media blackout (ref jim stons post to the right channels to ask questions)
Niels Smit “can they convince CS users that donation money?”
Yes . As their work is the truth and nothing but the truth (media blackout).It is their word against yours. And again the NVC is you lose as you have not proof (now that they have limited their communication). Remember a cult loves to channel communication (media blackouts) to suit their needs. Does David koresh ring a bell ?
Niels Smit “But I am not inclined to let them get away”
. A party pooper who just wants to point fingers instead of getting off your lazy back side and flying down to the collective to help.
Then you will be considered a pirate
I’ll poop their party anytime
The beauty is that Casey is building his own fraud case (digging his own grave, if you want), and we just have to sit back and relax. No way that the president of a charity can get away with spending charity funds on a beach in Thailand without a giving detailed account how that benefits the charity itself, no matter his ‘religion’.
I like Thomas’ post because it’s interesting and revealing about the CS culture….but yeah, I think you’re overreaching. You can apply the same cult criteria to most sports fan clubs. American devotion to the Green Bay Packers or the Boston Red Sox is equally intense and image-burnishing
I agree with Niels: I couldn’t care less how they do it (naked Lucifer-dancing or whatever) if collectives prove to be a good value for the money spent. I think Zak has made this point repeatedly: that good times in a work setting should serve one purpose…increasing productivity. How members are to evaluate the cost/benefit without proper communication is another issue.
Niels, not to forget the girl friend. Jelena Mair seems to have been at the house(s) without any detectable official reason; she is not a member of the participants’ group. Am I right in thinking that she is Casey’s current significant other?
You have no proof and like dogie/Dougie said “they used their OWN money” .
.
So you are just a rabble rouse with false accusation just like the rest of ocs
Do you know why there are no new photos from the collective?
And why dogie/Dougie was so scared to post names of people at the collective (coached by ttt and jim stone to keep quiet) ?
She can be at the house as far as I’m concerned; I never much believed in the secludedness of collectives furthering their productivity anyway. But when the expenses are accounted for, hers should not be in the books, for sure. But they will be, of course, which adds another count to the fraud case against CS International inc. and Casey Fenton personally.
@Niels
It seems you are frightened by the word “cult”. It’s not a black and white issue where something is or isn’t a cult (notice I never really answer the question in the title). I think understanding the dynamics of the CS collective is vital in understanding what’s going on in CS in general. I also believe we should look at characteristics of CS in relation with things we already know off. In this case, I think it is easy to argue that the CS collectives show many characteristics used to define a cult. Does that make it a cult? I guess that depends on where you draw the line.
In general, I think we should stay clear of the “do not give them ammo” line of reasoning. You seem to agree with me that there are troubling cult characteristics and I believe we have never stopped anyone on OCS from stating such observations. I know how intimidating some topics are (I hesitated quite a bit concerning the call for Casey’s resignation for instance, even though – deep down – I agreed with it), but isn’t this site about doing something brave for once and standing up to the continuous social pressure you feel as well? I mean, that’s amazing right: We sometimes self-censor for fear of public backlash, even when we’re stating obvious truths. And, let’s not forget one of the principal inspirations of this site:
As much as it flies directly in the face of some conventional wisdom (and NVC), tension is exactly what we need here. You are right that change will come eventually, but I don’t mind speeding up the process.
From my political background I’d rather tend to look for similarities between CS and political sects instead of spiritual groups but on the long run it doesn’t matter anyway … Daz made a point (see above):
6. Nothing but the truth (media blackout)
Here’s another point:
7. You’re in OR out
Everyone who isn’t part of the collective/in-group, can’t participate because he/she “don’t know”. Due to the fact that there is nothing reported to the outside world, the outsiders will never know … and even if you’re are an insider you can’t be (too) critical, because this is a) considered as “violence” and b) will bann you by slowly draining your resources/access rights*. It’s not even possible to leave in “good” after volunteering for a while as this is considered as inappropriate critic or betrayal on the “true spirit”. Or does anyone know any “honored former volunteer”?
Possible solutions:
Communication, communication and you know what? Yes, communication. Not marketing bloats or esotheric concepts of non-communicational violence, no communication.
Of course in a way this is all childish. But I still learn to be more sure about things I don’t want.
midsch
*The “you’re fired”-mails to some volunteers are an exception and an obvious failure in practicing “non-violent communication”. If I remember right, these mails (and the the famous naz-war) where labeled as “culture of appreciation” …
You seem to forget, Daz, that by registering as a charity in NH, Casey subjected CS International inc. to standards of accountability that are formulated by others than himself.
We don’t need to quarrel with Casey or his henchmen about what they do or do not want to divulge. We can leave that to the NH district attorney who can beat ‘em over the head with the NH statute. How’s your contact with their office these days, Pickwick?
There are five people regulating 7,000 charities in New Hampshire, so a degree of patience is required. Anyway, the 2007 annual report and accounts are due to be filed by mid April, and they are public information.
All the media attention that CS has received lately might inspire them to prioritise this one, wouldn’t you think? The bigger the donation influx, the larger the potential fraud… But even if it doesn’t work like that, I am confident that sooner or later, Casey and the other ‘leaders’ will reap their share of what they sowed.
@Thomas: I have no objection whatsoever against cults. They are profusely present in our society (the best-known exemplars are usually referred to as religions), and calling some group a cult does not imo entail any disqualification. In fact, cultism in organisations can be immensely fruitful.
I object against this thread because it stirs up all kind of pointless dispute between inherently subjective opinions, and thereby obscures the more or less objective facts that we have business being concerned about (i.e., the accountability of Casey and pals for collective expenses). I welcome you to carry on this discussion with me on the mailing list or personally (I don’t think in fact that our opinions are very far apart), but this is all I will say about it in this thread.
We now have a snitch in the new safety team. This is going to be so much fun
shh
You guys are so funny and its getting better. This post is hilarious! Booohooo the collective is a cult.
Anyway, as your trustful and only source of information here at the collective I can tell you the following classified information:
Every morning before we go to work we all do a little firedance around our main servers (with Casey sitting on top of them with all the girls licking his feet, of course). We do this because we like it and not because he orders us too. We didn’t really realise that smoke and servers don’t mix well together and thats why the site is down all the time. Also all the orgies on the database server cause serious slowdowns and lots of loss of information. Oooops
And another thing: Yes we ARE the chosen ones and we cary CS and Casey in our heart, mind, body and soul. We will dress up as normal travellers and visit the unsuspecting opencs members to slice their throat(and fuck their airhole) at night or at least beat some serious sense into them. Death or sense for the non believers! Yaaayayayayaaaaah
ps: We also do the awsome bananadance everytime the site goes down. FUN!
And Doogie aka douglas what about the orgies.You and Pinkfish and ? shonali and Jeff? .Do fill give us all the dope . I love the couchsurfing techie banana republic .
Doogy, after your first posts here I had hoped you might open new channels of communication into and out of the collective. Personally, whatever credibility you had has now been lost.
How do you suppose a member of a cult would respond if you asked them “are you a member of a cult”. My guess is they’d ridicule your suggestion.
@Doogy
There are varying degrees of “cultness”, even if your world is black or white only. Your post is a ridiculous rhetorical technique (look it up in Schopenhauers “The Art of Being Right”) and you fail to address any of the points I made. It’s not even that funny. What’s truly funny is that Casey has an irrational thing about banana’s (true story, I know we declined to buy any banana’s in NZ because of that). So I seriously doubt your bananadance claim, unless you really mean a “Wiener” dance.
But I guess it doesn’t matter. It looks like you drank the Kool-Aid.
Doogy you’re a good guy….take out the hook
we don’t care what you’re doing as long as donated money is spent responsibly and the work gets done…show evidence of those 2 things and we’re happy. Good day all
Collectives are what a total institution, meaning that all aspects of life take place within the same social circle, with increased pressure towards group thinking and feeling. That’s neither good nor bad in itself, but carries a potential for strong manipulation. It’s like boarding school, summer camp, prison, monasteries, or the army. Getting people into the setup of a total institution is every cult like organisation’s favourite dream. That’s why the association in the title of this thread is understandable.
Guys, every information that I posted so far has been pulled out of its context and has been twisted in a negative way. I never claimed that my info is objective, its just my own point of view and its a positive one. Nobody cares and its always used in a negative way.
Nobody cares here about the objectivity of anything that is posted. Opencouchsurfing is one vague assumption after the other.
I took it serious because you guys where invading my privacy. Its like you guys are at war with couchsurfing and use every mean possible to bring it down. With gossip and assumptions as main weapons of mass destruction. You guys are “the cult” thinking all of this is for a noble cause but you are only destroying what one day you loved so much.
@Margaret, I think you are the only reasonable person here. Keep up the good work.
@DavidK. Hey man, thank you, you make me almost feel like a celebrity. Its the first time I read gossip about myself on the internet and its coming from a complete stranger who never met me. Does your source of information also tells you if the orgie was any good?
You sound like a serial killa lol .Serious gangbanging
Quotes on Internet Privacy
” On the Internet, Nobody Knows You’re a Dog.”
- Peter Steiner, in the New Yorker
Doogy: “invading my privacy”
By discussing what you published online? Are you for real?
Doogy: “weapons of mass destruction”
[sigh]
Doogy: “… every … negative … never … Nobody … always … negative … Nobody … every … destroying …”
Good thing you don’t generalise.
You’re such a prime example of content free spitefulness that has replaced meaningful communication from the crowd around Casey! When was the last time you actually SAID something here? People like you are Casey’s worst enemies.
Now we are all CS-Terrorists
@Doogy
thanks for the compliment.
I think it’s best to assume that people are generally reasonable…and you can ask for clarity if you don’t understand their actions….rather than the other way around (ie: assuming they’re morons and looking for actions that support this negative view). this site does generate some vivid fighting…don’t get your feelings hurt since we all get hit with the mud now and then…just read it for entertainment.
as for the site’s lack of objectivity, most situations on the web and in real life are not objective. Everyone is trying to sell their viewpoint…they are either successful or not…but I don’t meet many (any?) truly objective people. Best to not expect objectivity from this site or anywhere.
Pickwick makes a good point: it doesn’t help Casey or CouchSurfing for their supporters to be in mutual perpetual agreement…since communities fail when the leadership becomes too insular. It’s easy to ignore critics as a way to buy time in problem-solving…but creativity will generate tension…good tension…but tension, all the same. Best to not evade that by tar/feathering all critics. Confront problems and get the work done.
the comraderie (sp?) and productive atmosphere that you are now experiencing in Thailand is unfortunately not duplicated for many of the general users. One amb describes this site as “coughing blood” in a recent thread…meaning, that the unaddressed problems are coming due. It would be wonderful of you to report what progress is being made…and I’m certain there is real progress and work being done! since we get very little news on CS. I understand that Mandie is working hard to get communication issues resolved…and we thank her for that.
hope you all are having fun…good week all
Margaret said:
Online communication is not hard. Setup a WordPress.com blog, write content. It really is that simple. We’re constantly given the excuse “it’s being worked on”. Quite frankly, I think that’s a crock of shit. Any honest communication at all would be better than the marketyspeakety garbage that we are fed in the newsletters.
you know…they had originally said they’d have a wordpress blog for the collective set up. I wonder what happened with that.
“marketyspeakety”
Incidentally, a friend in Scotland is moving and house hunting, and I saw an ad with the description “well presented”, which is real estate English for “there’s nothing else good we could say about this house”. ;-P
As I said before, to communicate is the ONE thing you can do immediately in a bad situation. The only thing that takes time is “not communicating” by filtering and deciding what you say and what you hide. And that is exactly what is happening.
yes unless there are other reasons for the muteness rather than hiding outright wrongdoing.
I get the general feeling that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing on Cs…because many knowledgeable people have gone and many new members are in leadership positions. Perhaps it takes time to get these people up to speed. Example: the Events/Outreach group states that you must be an amb to join…yet none of the group members are ambassadors. They are all new to Cs. This looks quite amateurish to me…and an easy target to criticize. Maybe this same type of thing is duplicated across the site…and the people in charge want to get their ducks in row before going live. (she says optimistically…)
Margaret said:
I think most of the key people are living in the same house in Thailand right now! But I can believe they don’t know what each other are doing.
Margaret could you clarify what you meant by the above statement?
Also are you a moderator of some communications group?
@Doogy
Wow. Did something bite you in the ass?
About the “privacy”: To be fair (and reasonable) I think the majority of people that post here don’t care what you do in your private time. I declined translating your public blog because of this reason (Dutch is my mother tongue). I’m sure there’s a comment that reflects that. But don’t come blaming everyone here collectively because somebody does read what you put online. I find it unfortunate that references are being made here to your love life, but you did put it out there yourself (which I find equally weird).
I do make assumptions and am not objective about CS. Where do you get the idea that OCS is about being objective? It is a political channel, not a news service! However, since CS’s communication is so abysmal, even our non-objective assumptions have more real content in them than what CS puts out.
And please, for the love of sanity, stop with the “OCS is trying to destroy CS, run away!” stuff. It’s simply ridiculous.
hey Daz
Pickwick and I moderate a group on CS called In Memoriam…it’s a group to honor cs members who have died. A guy asked in an ambs group if the CSC thailand people would include a discussion about procedures for handling member deaths. I was responding to his post with that statement: that we’d be happy to implement any procedure that they felt was appropriate for such a sensitive subject.
Thank you so much Margaret! Keep up the good work
This is for an anon .cx post and doogie
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
push cx
push dx
jae exit_traverse
Just wanted to rewrite the Monty Python’s Anarcho Syndicalist dialog after coming across a reference to it on of the groups.
Rachel: We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We do not take turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Casey: But all the decision of collective do not have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
Matthew:But by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,
Modified from Application of the Critical Theory http://www127.pair.com/critical/food.htm
I stumbled on this website accidentally, and initially thought it to be an interesting concept, but I can’t believe how bitter the views of couchsurfing are here. With regards to if it is a cult, you went, you didn’t like it, don’t go back. You say in this story that maybe all the participants should be paid, then complain in other stories that couchsurfing is hiring people. Couchsurfing isn’t perfect, nothing is, but in comparison to most other hospitality exchanges, it is excellent. Should you really feel that CS is some cultlike, money stealing, evil corporation then step up to bat, and turn this complaint site into the couchsurfing utopia that you wish for.
NO Gareth!!
This site opening peoples eyes every day .
Those who want to stay blinded and ignorant go back to couch surfing and do not try to make it better . They go back and keep quiet
Caseys friends (casey does not care) tries very hard to hide the faults .There is a PR team which spreads disinformation.
This site gets people coming here and they are angry to see the truth. Truth hurts. They will defend the untruths till after a year they slowly realize humm there was some things on ocs which were true. Truth takes times to be realised.
Those who never want to change or see the truth will never change . But i know and see every days people who care about couchsurfing coming here and reading and then thinking……….
Yes, Gareth. This site is a joke. It had some interesting points early on but quickly became overrun with conspiracy theories and blatant lies that a few people now believe to be gospel. Some came, didn’t like, didn’t get their way, and unfortunately left hurt and have started this dis-information/smear campaign service against a website that they claim to love. It’s sad but that’s what it is. Any point they might have had is long gone now.
I hope you continue to enjoy CouchSurfing. It’s sad that so many people here get caught up in this OCS bullshit and limit themselves from the full experience of what it actually is to be a CouchSurfer.
The “conspiracy theories and blatant lies” on OpenCS don’t make the situation any better in CouchSurfing. The original points of OpenCS are all still completely valid.
What is “the full experience of what it actually is to be a CouchSurfer”? Does it by any chance involve a mix of illicit substances?
I must be on a different site to you guys the, because for all its faults it really is not that bad, and Casey formed the site, surely that has to give a fair bit of say in how it is run. Benefits on CS really do outweigh any cons. As I said in the last message, if you guys have the know how, and a better way of doing things then why not turn tis site into a new open project that is better than CS?
Gareth because this is ocs not cs. This site was created in response of the coup of the wiki by jim stone.
The you are fired letter by chris (acting as a proxy for casey)
Also the lies keep continuing . Couchsurfing keeps haemorrhaging with casey and his buddies spending the profits on their own private party (which is called a collective).This money could have been used to make couchsurfing better by having permanent centres all over the world but….
Do you really understand the purpose of ocs?
It ocs is not a competitor of couch surfing.